The point is this: a straight taper only leads to a flat stress curve, as you say, UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. I always encourage customers to try before they buy. (Todd Talsma), I had rather hoped that I might finesse out of someone just what these specific requirements might be. A rod from John is the next best thing to the real thing. Neither of the Powell's on Hexrod are straight taper, I have no Winston tapers handy. As Lou points out, it is nicest with the kind of ferrule Dickerson made himself. Great conversation. If you want a starting point then make the rate of taper 20 thousandths per inch and hollow build to 50 or 60% of original wall thickness. The ID of the female ferrule where it accepts the male slide is .187", or 12/64. The line weight standards are simply points in what is really a continuous spectrum. 6 wt 0.0752 65 0.2565 60 0.231 142296 double taper silk lines at short ranges. For each size ferrule there is a specific range of dimensions that will fit inside each size. (Gordon Koppin), If I might ask: Which Perfectionist taper do you favor? I'm not familiar with Tom Fulk's true arc taper. I've built this one which was posted to the rodmaker's listserv years ago. I deducted .005 for the varnish. (David Atchison), Didn't Dickerson make his own ferrules and weren't they slightly oversized? So the data exists both ways in the spreadsheet. It made a fine rod, but you have to smooth out the taper leading into and out of the 45 and 50" stations as the rod was designed for a step down ferrule. The last page shows our interpolated numbers, on 5 inch stations, with varnish already subtracted, using both the Howell method (measure stations from the butt up) or the "classic" method (measure stations from the tip down.) The only question that puzzles me is why on earth he thought this might be important for fishing the Risle, which is hardly the Tay. I get tired of hearing that kind of comment. 25 .232 .115 While I have never cast an original (I think only a few were ever made by Mr. Dickerson) I have made a 4-5. They would be; The Straight line taper is the most basic and then the six major deviations of the SLT. In practice most people these days do not take well to these technically correct ideas, preferring a slope to the straight line, giving higher strain levels near the tip, i.e. Your statement that "if you want to make overweight rods with unnecessarily heavy tips and relatively floppy butts then straight tapers will deliver. However, a straight line taper will create a rod in which the angle of deflection will increase from the butt to the tip at linear (constant)rate. Just a topic to ponder on these slow summer days. This rod belonged to rodbuilder Tim Bedford. To vary the straight line you can adjust the tip dimension. Forgot to mention before, Rich Jezioro is taking a set of 11-12/64 ferrules to Grayling for the silent auction for me, so if anybody's interested you can see them there if you're attending. Must have been a real thrill to cast Banjos' rod. Granger. Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. I will assume that you have calculated those several effects correctly, although I see no details. I do not rule out the possibility of owning a Lyle Dickerson rod one day but, may I ask, if you own or were having a rod made today with a Dickerson taper, If you want a Dickerson - John Pickard is your best choice. As a general rule, a 12/64 gives you a four weight, a 13/64 a five, 14 or 15 a six. (Rich Jezioro). The 1970 Dickerson has the same type tip as the 1952 except it has a very shallow flex in the upper butt and a faster swell into the butt, a 4/5 wt, faster rod. All Dickerson copies include Dickerson aesthetics, blued ferrules & an agate stripping guide. The swell starts at the 80" mark which will be under the cork assuming I have a grip and an insert roughly 10" in length. (Will Price), Is not 7'6'' a bit short for a five weight? (Greg Reeves), TipsHome - What'sNew - Tips - Articles - Tutorials - Contraptions - Contributors - Search Site - ContactUs - TaperArchives I think the 8014GS is up to the task. I only use short rods on overgrown streams. There should be 20 measurements not 19. It seems that a Garrison-type taper with a straight, flat stress curve would be the most likely to be tolerable. (Al Baldauski). Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.. Photos, paintings, written stories and talents. I think the perfectionist is a fine taper and rod. Leonard patent, I believe. Its definitely a bigger water rod that the 7613. Inevitably, if part of the strain is caused by rings ferrules and varnish, as it must be, then its resultant effect will detract from the weight of line that rod will cast. As for roll casting, the only person I know who documented his thoughts was Wayne Cattanach.. (Nick Nasello), I made the Dickerson 8615 last year for lake bass and liked it but it does get to be a bit if a bear to cast after about 3 hours. Sold Out $4,050.00 Description Particulars For your consideration is a Lyle Dickerson model 8013 bamboo fly rod made in 1948. The 7012 HB is super light, and can cast with the best of them. Help from forum members would be welcomed. 40 .200 .070 40 .202 .375 Regarding the similarities and differences between the 7'6" and 8' Dickerson's. This rod consists of medium tempered cane constructed in a 3x3 node pattern with Dickerson tan wraps and black tipping. Orvis passed the 60,000 bamboo rods made number quite some time back and of course is still making them. I have not tried it with an 8 weight but I will as soon as I get back from Texas, ya'll. Pt Butt Tip You can built say a 5wt using a 13/64 ferrule and any of these slopes, and they'll all be 5 weights, but if you do the math you'll see that the tip dimensions would vary greatly. 0.369 4.6 ounces. Lyle Dickerson (Michigan) Measurements under the handle are obviously estimates. There seems to be a misunderstanding about the results this yields. Kind of sounds like a pro Pickard crowd here. Some rods might in fact be best with a line weight that falls between two designated ones eg. 0.153 Made 2 of the heavier one. Can you direct me to where I can find more information on this? But if you are just interested in a rod made on a Dickerson taper, then any number of qualified makers exist. You don't find a need for a 7'6" 5wt on your streams. The most interesting rods have a distinctive type of action, and a particular form and design, which is distinctive, and which seems to express a particular maker's vision. by avyoung 06/17/16 00:43, Post The rod in question has a test curve of 4 ozs, by the way. Ten measurements on the butt and ten stations on the tip. Most of the ones I have made and sold are the PHY Perfectionist taper. 45 0.186 158623 "God made dogs to steal our hearts and they do.". by ShenRods 05/08/09 01:54, Post In fact, I used this taper, hollow built, when taking the FFF casting certification test. Lyle Dickerson tapered copies Lyle Dickerson (1892-1981) has long been known as a pioneer in rodbuilding, due partly to his use of machinery in production but primarily appreciated by fishermen for many of his fast and accurate taper designs. I would describe the rod action as very powerful, as you would expect from most Dickersons. I could probably improve just by buying a new cheap file.. Gary - The following taper was taken from a varnished 8013. I Have commented additionally, if trivially in a private post on the other points. (Steve Weiss), That opens up another question. Contact us to learn more about how we can help! (Robin Haywood), Is 8'4" a bit long for a 4 wt.? (Paul Blakley), I have a taper for the Dickerson 7613 and am a little confused. by thramerrods 06/17/16 04:28, Post by avyoung 06/16/16 18:33, Post Maybe it is the version of the taper they are making, there are several out there. 30 .174 .322 I brought my recently acquired 861711D to Luray, Virginia to show/share with Chris at his rod shop open house some years ago. The 7613 is a wonderfully versatile taper, the rod is light in the hand, and is at home casting sizes #6 Muddlers to #16 Dry flies. 0.266 It's all pulled through by hand. (Tim Pembroke), I wasn't aware of that but now that I've been told it does make perfect sense. Harry Boyd ----------- Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com maker@canerods.com Aransas.clarks Guide Posts: 301 It's a 7 wt too but being a little shorter is easier on the arm and shoulder due to the shorter lever arm length. 0.178 I'm probably going to have to find a use for one as it happens as a design for a 7'6'' #4 that is nearing ringing looks a bit beefy for a #4. One of our most recognizable rod models with a deep flamed color and crisper action. Consider one or the other of these two if your rod maker intends to fit the rod with step down ferrules, since there is a .010" step down across the ferrule stations. The same can be said for the EC Powell taper in Hexrod (the 7'6" 2pc 6wt in the archives) which IS A B-9 TAPER; just look at the average slope from stations from the 80" mark thru 0". On the other hand, Dickerson was designing rods (most likely) for Michigan waters. I have made quite a few Dickerson tapers. This is the second invitation to fish Michigan, and I thank you sincerely for it. You can draw a straight line between the tip and the butt of any taper. 6-strip Tonkin bamboo by jim royston 05/26/17 08:58, Return to Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods., Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. Anyway, far too few people concern themselves over what should be the staple obsession of every rodmaker-design. This first set was posted on The Classic Fly Rod Forum by Jeff Fultz. 35 .186 .326 Since it was a know Dickerson Taper and not a myth I set out to recreate how I think Lyle would of done it and it came out sweet. If you are building in the drop at the ferule that Dickerson used, you will usually end up using a size larger ferrule than you'd normally think. Perhaps you can see why I think that a 1500 cane rod may be a bargain! And well worth the little time it takes to execute. If you like I can send you a compensated SLT and you will see what I mean. Even then I wince about their roll casting deficiencies. In fact, I had great trouble casting the bloody thing. 0.308 (Greg Reeves), This version appears to me to take a step into account. I do find that I am using much shorter rods than I did, I think its the American influence of this Listserv! 0.144 According to Hoagy Carmichael Jr. who filmed a documentary for Boston Public TV, the Payne Rod Co. made approximately 12,000 rods during it's existence. Remember that respect and civility is the goal of this board. I like Dickerson's fast action, but I have not had a chance to try every rod Jim Payne made. by Aransas.clarks 05/09/09 02:49, Post Point Dimension 761510: 7'6" 3/2 5 wt. Hi Guys, Also, some of those Heddons would have had pins through the tab area causing, in my view, problems. A significant part of that application are the prejudices of the person who is going to be using it. I've cast the original and it is one strong casting rod and deserving of the Guide Special nomenclature. "And look at the difference in the prices they go for!" Special Note on this rod/ All the snake guides on the tip are 2/0 and the mid are 1/0 with a 8 stripper on butt section. You can do all the compensation you like for varnish thickness, ring weight and ferrules but you will still not produce anything like as good as a properly calculated compound taper rod. Because Ritz was not an engineer, any more than Creusevaut or Plantet were (although the latter may have been a competent mechanic) it was thought that the extension pole should be just that, a large diameter pole of slow taper. The mid sections are very different. (Peter Jones) Varnish of 0.004 subtracted. It does not do anything to the action as most of the last 3 inches is inside the ferrule anyway. The 8013 is an 8' 0", 2/2, 5wt., 4.35 oz. Edwards Edwards #25 Quad - 7ft 4wt light tip What you have done is show the slope to the tip to butt. 0.266 (Harry Boyd), In Dickerson-speak, does a 7613 have a 14 on the butt to 13 on the tip or a 13 on the butt to 12 on the tip stepdown? All of the Dickerson tapers I have made using Super Zs have been great. 0.196 0.256 Should be a very nice rod, good Taper. It was a rod I hate. Summers & Co. - Womens Sports ApparelBob with Granddaughter Cara FlyfishingGreat Brown, Rainbow and Cutthroat Fly FishingOutdoor Writer and Used Book SalesFishing and Wing Shooting Guide ServiceGreat Lakes Charter FishingSporting JewlerCustom GunsmithingFine Hand EngravingFine Reel & Rod Cases, 90 River Road, EastTraverse City, Michigan 49696 USAPhone/Fax (231) 946-7923bobsummers@charter.net, 2222 - 7. If you want to make overweight rods with unnecessarily heavy tips and relatively floppy butts then straight tapers will deliver. He took the first step to improving them, inadvertently, you say, by fining down the tips. If you are looking for a Dickerson rod or have one that you would like to sell please contact us. that'd be super! I have a chart of the dimensions at home, if you need a copy email me off list. One authority I know claims Jim Payne actually built more fly rods than Orvis. At The Airport. I believe he told me he placed his roll casting hinge 10"-15" above the handle, depending on rod length. If you want the rod to have the same characteristics as before the change, the you must add some cane to the mid/butt of the rod to maintain the balance that was there before. Determine the effect of adding or subtracting material as to what effect it will have on rod action, we can design rods for a specific purpose. Suggest that you subtract .006 for varnish. 0.078 I fail to see anything in the manor of specifications for your making a point that you feel there is a difference between the two, in fact I would like to show you that they are, under the right conditions, EXACTLY THE SAME. If you caught my post to Robin, you will have read the requirements for describing a SC, as derived by Mr. Everett Garrison in his book. (Mark Wendt), I am wanting to build a Dickerson 7012 but cant find a taper that accounts for the step downs. Post Made by Top Ten Tapers in Twinsburg, Ohio. 0.241 50% due upon order placement; balance due upon completion. The stepdown in the female is from a 14/64 ID where the ferrule goes over the bamboo to 12/64 ID where it accepts the male slide. Thanks. Not too many folks consider these mediocre. 0.206 Some use this to define the average rod speed. Just looking for a taper that accommodates the step down ferrule nicely. 0.232 The guy turns out to be a top casting instructor. These were Bailey Woods stepdown ferrules. John P. has the Original Dickerson 7612 taper, a very rare rod but John understandably will not share the taper. Short cased and portable. The Dickersons that I've seen were similar. (Dennis Higham). As this was my favorite rod, much foul language followed. You may, or may not, as a rod designer, wish to achieve either, but probably not both! (Jerry Foster), I agree. CSE made the ferrule for me. Garrison's are straight except for the last 15 inches which he "fudged" to accommodate one of the standard tip top sizes. 45 .216 .375 The top snake guide on the butt has a bit of a bend to it. Information About Makers and Manufacturers, Appraisals & Identification of Bamboo Fly Rods. Hence the short butt long tip "BSAS" conformation of some of the better iterations. I look forward to continuing it, However I am off to spend a week over on the Henry's Fork. 40 .200 under grip 0 .084 .238 (2 1/2" @ ferrule wrap) I recently sold a rod to a customer blind on the phone. by avyoung 06/12/16 21:25, Post (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive). I search on Google and didn't come up with anything. I would specifically urge all to look at the graphs. a 3 1/2 wt - were that possible. It is my belief that there are only seven truly different tapers available as a base to design rods from. (Will Price). Also, your shorthand doesn't describe where these changes take place, which is as equally as important as the changes themselves. Welcome to the Taper Archives; The data on this page reflects the work of generations of dedicated rodmakers. A lot goes into crafting a bamboo fly rod and here you can learn more about our approach. (Jimmy Chang), I have made rods using both tapers. Bamboo Tips - Tips Area I have fished some pretty big water with this rod and it has served me very well. by avyoung 06/17/16 04:49, Post All tapers are based solely or partially on the combinations of these basic deviations from the SLT. If you move it up to the mid section you might add a hinge that gets involved in the normal cast.. which is usually to be avoided. (Henry Mitchell), In Dickerson-speak, it would be a size 13 on the butt, and a 12 on the tip. (Bret Reiter), I call this one a seven too. Actually I feel an increase of .030 would be sufficient. I hope this is for step down ferrule. As you know line weight do vary so maybe your 8 wt is my 7 wt, or something like that? All through this process you must be aware of the stress curves as well, you don't want to make changes that will cause a rod to fail. 48 .224 .375, I don't know how Banjo arrived at the measurements under the grip and reel seat. Even if you take off 0.006 for varnish, in case that wasnt done, its still a 7 1/2 wt. 0.248 I own a Thramer 6611 and 7012 HB tapers, both with Thramer cosmetics and they are both awesome rods. It is truely a wet fly action - great for those soft hacles. Jim Payne. I have built Russ' version, which I believe was posted yesterday, and I love it. Could this be the difference between an 861711D and an 861711? All 5wt with identical terminal tip and butt dimensions. 95 0.3435 (Tom Bowden). But if you change any of these inputs, the taper, length or weight of line cast, the stress curve will no longer be flat. 0.178 Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.. Photos, paintings, written stories and talents. On a theoretical straight line or linear taper the rod would load progressively down to the handle. 0.320 The point here being, if we can define areas along the straight line or linier taper. .203 is about all you can get into a 13/64 ferrule. At Headwaters Bamboo Rod Company we build our rods based on proven "historical" tapers, meaning that the tapers we use were designed by Twentieth Century bamboo fly rod craftsmen. Consider this, the aspect of looking at tapers as deviations from straight lines is most valid when you are designing from numbers and not from stress or deflection. The 6 for the Hex the 7 for streamers. Garrison would have like straight line stress/strain results for the same reason Richard Walker did. From 80 to 85, there is an increase of ~.070. 5 0.088 112541 Tell me about it please. 20 0.126 0.120 It's the important half, too, the other one is less important than line weight, I refer you to the basic laws of aerodynamics, this post is already too long! We're committed to providing a safe, comfortable environment for our travelers. if you were to use this type of ferrule, you might choose one that has a 13/64ths opening on the top, and a 14/64ths opening on the bottom. (four piece) carbon fiber fly rod blank (NOW IN A GLOSSY DARK GREEN) $70.00 9' 6" 5wt. If you want to see the justification for compound tapers look at the design of the Eiffel tower or any electricity pylon. he then concludes with a diabolical smile. Dickerson 8015 Guide Special By Jim Schaaf, 2458 - 11. I would suggest you should RESPECT the man (as well as EC Powell and others) who made contributions to providing us all with tools to understand and continue to develop taper design (Hexrod being one, a powerful and easily applied tool, I believe based on Garrison's math).
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